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Top Apollo Manager Opposes NASA's Moon Goal
 

One of the most respected top managers of the Apollo program, Joseph P. Gavin, who led development of the NASA/Grumman Apollo lunar module, is airing sharp opposition to the Bush Administration/NASA goal of returning humans to the Moon as a stepping stone to Mars. 

  In a letter to Aviation Week & Space Technology, Gavin, former director of the lunar module development at Grumman, says he believes the near term Orion Crew Exploration Vehicle lunar plan and Moon base goal should be scrapped in favor of even more emphasis on Mars—especially robotic Mars exploration.

“I have been somewhat surprised to see the lack of active criticism of the administration’s vision for space exploration,” says Gavin in his letter to Aviation Week. “It seems to me to be more concerned with the 'how' as opposed to the 'why' he says.

The letter is carried in Aviation Week’s July 30 edition. The Apollo Grumman lunar module design is being used by NASA as an engineering starting point for the initial assessments of a the manned Lunar Surface Access Module (LSAM) that would return astronauts to the Moon in about 13 years under NASA’s new exploration vision.

“The argument that the Moon is a necessary training base for eventual manned expeditions to Mars is flatly unpersuasive,” says Gavin, who directed development of the first manned spacecraft ever to land on another body in space. 

After manned test flights in Earth orbit by Apollo 9 and lunar orbit by Apollo 10, six more Grumman lunar modules landed 12 astronauts on the Moon between 1969-1972 ( see Apollo 15 photo below ). Another acted as a lifeboat to save the Apollo 13 crew.


blog post photo
 After leading lunar module development and other programs at Grumman, Gavin became president and CEO of the company. Now retired and in his late 80s, Gavin remains active in aerospace forums and also with his alma mater, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

Gavin says the new NASA lunar vision should be shifted to Mars immediately. He will turn 100 yrs. old in 2020,  about when the first lunar landing since Apollo is envisioned.

“Inasmuch as we have been to the Moon—-yes I remember the Apollo days vividly—-it is unclear to me that there is any particular urgency to return, he says. “Past studies have indicated the complexity and the implied great expense of a lunar base operation.

“The application of Apollo style technology to replace the shuttle appears to be a desperate effort to save development costs. It also seems to be an invitation to the Europeans and others to jump ahead of us in pushing the frontiers of technology.”  

Gavin says “our first priority” should be to fully exploit the International Space Station. But the second major U. S. space program priority “should be to undertake further robotic exploration of Mars to see if human exploration [there] is really warranted,” he says.

  “Mars is becoming more interesting as we receive more data from the unmanned devices now in place and reporting back. The intriguing question of current or prior life on Mars needs to be answered,” he says.

While Gavin’s comments came in a letter to this Aviation Week editor, several other key Grumman lunar module engineers, who were led by Gavin,  told a recent NASA return-to-the-Moon symposium that they have doubts about whether the national political leadership and public  have continued will to undertake a major new manned lunar effort, as in Apollo. The symposium was not a forum about whether the U. S. should return to the Moon, but rather for a discussion between Grumman and NASA managers about how lessons from the Apollo lunar module program (begun 40 years ago) could aid development of the LSAM for the new NASA plan.

“Because in the 1960s everyone was conscious of Apollo, we were able to attract the best and brightest people to work on the program,” says Gerry Sandler who helped lead the Grumman lunar module Reliability and Maintainability Team.   “If it is not recognized that [the NASA/Bush lunar plan] is a major national priority people are not going to be as anxious to work on these kind of things as they were in the 1960s, he told the NASA symposium in Washington on the new lunar effort.

“We talked about that being one of the major differences on the upcoming program as opposed to the past,” says Bob Schwartz, also a retired Grumman lunar module engineer. “We were being watched by the entire world and we were not permitted to fail. I am not so sure there is that drive now,” he said.

Lunar module engineer Joe Mule’ said he believed it would take 15 years to reconstitute an engineering team like developed the Apollo spacecraft.

The Lunar Module veterans expressed concern about the current poor performance of U. S. students in math and science. But none of them openly expressed a preference for Mars over the Moon like their former boss Gavin, who did not attend the symposium because of a previously planned trip to Hawaii that conflicted with the timing of the Washington session.

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The shame of this approach is the past. Where did all the space evangelists go at the heels of Apollo? It was rare, and still is to find someone who goes out publicly and talks of the vision of space in terms of something which can be achieved. Other than Rob Zubrin, they are far and few between. Where are the Von Brauns? You have Buzz Aldrin but where were the Grumman people? Where were the people willing to go out on a limb and state a vision, build excitement, and get young students interested? Tom Hanks came to the rescue several years ago with his movei and HBO series, but what about the people who were involved? Decades have gone past where it was very quiet. Neil Armstrong had the opportunity to keep the flame lit but it never happened.
Wether you agree or disagree with Joe, we all need to ask, where have you been? We need to be loud and aggressive again. We need to stand for what we believe in and not shrink away. We have lost a generation. Let's get moving again with POSITIVE and achievable ideas, not just nay saying.
Remember Teddy Roosevelt..."Keep your eyes on the stars and your feet firmly on the ground." Let's get going!
7/31/2007 8:08 AM CDT
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o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o

1.5 years ago may opinion was the same of Mr. Gavin
since the (manned and unmanned) Mars exploration is
thousands times more interesting that come back on
our big rock called Moon, also, I agree 100% with him
(and said several times on space forums) that a Mars
mission is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than jump again on
the Moon, since (nearly) NOTHING of Moon's travels
and exploration hardware, experience and astronauts'
training can NEVER be "reused" nor "applied" to a Mars
mission (that will need technologies we don't have nor
can imagine now!) but, after thinking again and again
about the "Mars program", I've changed my opinion
and now I think that our Moon is absoluitely necessary
for Mars mission from an ECONOMICAL point of view

the VSE/ESAS Moon program already is very expensive
project with evaluated costs around $125 billion (from
NASA) or over $230 billion (from GAO) in the next 20
years (with just a dozen of ISS missions and another
dozen of Moon sortie-missions planned, two per year!)

a similar effort for Mars is evaluated (from ESA experts)
around $500 billion that is an so big amount of money
not even NASA and USA can afford alone (and probably
will be TOO MUCH also for an international coalition)

however, part of these (very high, but, still optimistic!)
costs could be saved ONLY if some hardware and fuels
will be produced on the Moon and launched in orbit with
the higher propellent/payload efficiency due to the low
Moon gravity (instead of send everything from earth)
so, a Mars mission launched from lunar orbit could cost
something less than launched from earth and its orbits

I believe (but I'm not completely sure) the money saved
could be from 1/3 to 1/2 of a Mars mission launched from
earth, so, the "price" will be affordable for our countries

gaetano marano

I've updated my "EASY ways to CUT the Orion's weight"
with some new ideas to reduce its (overweighted) mass:
http://www.gaetanomarano.it/articles/031easyways.html

o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o
7/31/2007 4:22 PM CDT
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J Joerg wrote:
Even though this thread is a bit slow Ill jump in with my two cents.
While both sides of the argument here have merit, I would have to agree with a return to the moon being a valid stepping stone. One main reason for this is to test how robust our systems are, in close proximity to earth where a major malfunction need not be a death sentence. I also feel that current plans do not contain any vision of the future and really arent tailored to go anywhere. Stepping back to Apollo on steroids is an obvious mistake. We should have a vision for a return to the moon that is a building block for opening up mars and the rest of our solar system. Rather than stepping back to Apollo where we throw most of that expensive hardware away; we should be working on building reusable infrastructure. If we are going to take a step back we should step back to the Dyna-Soar. After all we are talking about MANED space exploration. A quick turn reusable surface to obit transportation system is still the best option. With everything we have learned from the shuttle a small six-man reusable space plane for transferring PEOPLE to orbit should be a no-brainer. The big pieces can be lofted unmanned. The second step is getting to the lunar surface. Why not construct a fairly large lunar transfer vehicle that will cycle between earth and lunar orbit? This could serve several functions, bringing people and supplies back and forth. Bringing fuel for the (completely reusable) lunar Lander and finally acting as a test bed for long duration systems. This lunar transfer vehicle could be a great test bed for all of the systems developed for the long trip to Mars. The final step is to the surface and back, and the Lander should be totally reusable for many cycles. It could draw fuel manufactured on the surface or draw its expendables from the lunar transfer vehicle.
I think that the current administration is doing us all a disservice, promoting a fast and dirty return to the moon, a plan with little fore-thought or vision. A return to the moon is a must, just for these reasons. Throw in the fact that China is headed there and the game really changes.
11/1/2007 10:56 PM CDT
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