The first of the Royal Thai Air Force Gripen fighters has now flown. Gripen International has just released these pictures from the event:
Thailand is buying a first batch of six Gripens, with more to come later. The first six include two single-seaters and four two-seaters. Initial training will take place in Sweden, with the aircraft to transition to Thailand in 2011. Eventually, Thailand is expected to buy at least six more of the aircraft.
Nice pics. I'm a fan of Saab.By their own admission,although they're certainly not the largest aerospace company in the world, I salute the fact that for a country with a smaller population than London, they've managed to build up an excellant aerospace company over the last 70 years. I doubt unfortunately whether they'll be successful with the Brazilian deal but Switzerland will be next on the list to make a decision, so I wish them luck for that. It was mentioned on other posts that with the size of Brazil, a single-engined fighter might be a risk too far when,say, flying over the amazon region. My reponse to that would be to remind people that the Swedish Air Force flew 7 Gripens' from Sweden to Nevada (obviously with fuel-stops enroute) and back quite safely, when they attend the Red Flag exercise there.
Fred, having a flame-out and having to punch out over the Amazon can ruin your entire day. Survival is less than a fifty-fifty chance and gets less every hour, I'm told. In fact, it's safer to eject over sea than in that 'green sea' that is the Amazon rain forest, since you're almost litterally drowned by the green canopy. Even with transpoders finding, and retrieving a downed pilot is risky affair.
But I second that current modern jet engines are more reliable and comparable to twin-jet config safety wise. Gripen is no lawn dart.
And I too have also been a big Saab fan. Ever since the Viggen they peaked my interest. And as a matter of fact, ALL of Sweden's defense products are class A+. The CV-90, the BV series, the CB-90H, RBS-56 and -70, Visby, those Kockums subs... The list goes on and on.
I fear however, that Gripen will be the last true Swedish combat aircraft produced, since the automatic government contracts and the number of aircraft required during the Cold War are a thing of the past; development costs just can't be recovered any more.
That's why it saddens me that Gripen has such a lousy export record. It's selling, just not in the right numbers it really deserves.
Cool. Thailand will fly both F-16 and Gripens. What a interesting mix! Marcase I wouldn't say the export record is totally lousy... it's been a bad decade or so for the industry as a whole and maybe it's even quite a good record all things considered. Selling against a established F-16/Mirage dominance and US/French political status.
If this was indeed a US product it would have sold much more and that is perhaps what is sad (in fighter deals the product is not even that important since no matter what you buy you're likely to go from cold war single-role fighters to modern multirole... the bottom line capability is so good no matter what which is why some countries gradly accept 2nd hand F-16s).
Marcase 'having to punch out over the Amazon can ruin your entire day'.. have to agree with you there mate! I know, re: the upcoming (at some time anyway) MMRCA deal for the IAF that Saab would be up against it with the 5 other contenders, but I believe the Gripen NG would be the ideal fit. All the others (apart from the F-16) IMO are a bit of overkill- the IAF already has the 2-engined mix with Migs/Sukhois'.
It will be interesting if the enhanced AESA now being offered will influence India. The Gripen NG with the new AESA, and equipped with the Meteor missile would be a formidable combination.
Agreed, SAAB deserves a trophy for something over the decades, taking all into account.. at least for 'Honorable Mention'.
The road-way operating design feature, along with the fuel-efficiency is a major bonus for NG in any competition. Much cheaper to train in too, than most.
Likewise (off-topic), I would personally support any Northrop F-20X redesign (incl F414 power) and perhaps including delta wing plus CFT, if feasible.
Ahh.. a post about Gripen finally.. :) this is a lot of text, hope you won't mind too much.. I've had a few questions I've wanted to bring to Ares attention, but didn't want to go to far offtopic.. Anyway, to start with, nice to see that Thai Gripen airborne. It's interesting btw, with all arguing for using twin engine aircraft over sea &/or jungle, that the Thai airforce supposedly choose the Gripen to a large extent due to wanting to better police it's sea interests. That's why it's being based in Surat Thani AFB as I understand it. & why load of RBS-15F's are included in the package right away. Perhaps they feel more comforted than others by Gripen's flameout statistic's (being 1 in what now?, close to 150 000 h?, & that time it restarted just fine..), or could it be that the waters & jungles of Thailand are so much nicer? & the amazon compared to plungeing into the sea, well if that sea is the Baltic Sea in the winter, which would be a not altogeather unlikely scenario for SwAF pilots?.. Regarding the AESA for Gripen, in general, & in connection to the IAF MMRCA deal, it would be interesting to hear some thoughts from Bill Sweetman for exemple, regarding Gripen International's India director Eddy de la Motte's claim that what SAAB are offering is a second generation AESA? Is that are reasonable claim? Apparently USAF are deeming future development of Gripen related miniturized technology relevant enough to want in. To what extent that might be relevant for the Selex Vixen radar, that now apparently goes by the name ES-05 Raven, & is being co-developed with Selex Galileo, Saab Microwave Systems and Saab Aerosystems as partners, I'm not sure. I guess it will have relevance for it future delopment at least. According to NDTV journalist Vishnu Som who apparently attended a briefing recently, the new radar is presently on the demonstrator rig and meets expectations, & will be flight-tested in last quarter of this year. Apparently, it be showcased in NG (Gripen Demo) which will be flown to India in March. It seems they will then also demonstrate the range of it being over 4000 km. So, it seems they are pretty confident in in that aircraft's performance & reliability.. He also reports that the Gripen Demo have done 10 supercruise flights at Mach 1.2 ... most (if not all) were with 4 air to air missiles. (Personally I think one should read it as fligts being done at more than Mach 1.2 , ie fulfulling the criteria for supercruise. I doubt they'd like to go public with what speed they were reaching at this stage.) Vishnu also notes that: I think the main point that Gripen wants to stress is that India can be a part of the Gripen NG development project. There is huge potential in developing the platform. As an example ... the core avionics of the C/D are presently running on the NG rig at just 3 per cent of the capability of the system. It would be interesting to know what price the IAF is getting from SAAB btw, considering it's now public knowledge that the JAS 39C/D (without LINK-16) delivered to Sweden under the Batch 3 production cost just under $30m/aircraft. Gives one an idea of how hard they might be able to press the price, huh..? For the cost of aquiering & maintaining/using 1 Mirage Rafale for exemple, they might be able to deploy 2 Gripen NG's, & still save money! I wonder if President Lula over in Brazil has realized that yet?.. Another note, related to the Baltic Air Policing, & indirectly the Luftwaffe's experience's the lately,: Between 2004 and until the CzAF took over the Baltic Air Policing for the first time, that is 5 years, NATO aircraft conducted 8 live A-scrambles. The 8th was conducted by the USAF in late 2008. The CzAF Gripens did 8 x A-scambles in just 4 months and thus hold the record for being the most busy unit so far. This strengthens what's being noted in the post about the Luftwaffe Typhoons attracting increased attention at their present mission; it would seem it's a new trend , that started alreday with the CzAF Gripens presense in that area. The Czechs btw, seem to make considerable use of their 14 aircraft fleet: from May to August attending 2 QRA missions in 2 different places, after handing over the baltic mission to Luftwaffe they host a 2 week exercise with Texas Air National Guard at home, participate in Tiger Meet in Belgium, & fit in an airshow in GB.. Seems like a pretty busy schedule for 14 aircrafts, doesn't it?.. Ahh, & btw, FRED, on the overkill matter, one might argue that the Gripen NG is an overkill aswell then, right?.. I mean since SAAB claim the Gripen NG goes 1:6 to 1 against Su-35 in projected capacities for those planes in 2015.. in Gripens case, that's with Meteor & IRIS-T missiles natuarally btw.
rather strange that single engine safety is only an issue when it is in connection with the Gripen. The Dassault Mirage 2000 and their older generation compatriots in Brazilian Air Force do not seem to have this problem. The safety record of the JAS 39C/D is very impressive. Flying in four countries and so far two accidents of which the last one seems like pilot error and the first one was due to an unwanted ejection due to the new seat ejection handles which have been replaced so that will not occur again. It is doubtfull that Brazil has twin engine money or they would not have delayed their replacement requirement so often.
griffin.velociraptor, good blog there mate. Read rcently that those who've had the full demo on the Selex radar have been freaked out by the it's capabilities. Concerning price of the NG, there was something a while back on the Saab website that it would be in the $55-60M range.
I doubt unfortunately whether they'll be successful with the Brazilian deal but Switzerland will be next on the list to make a decision, so I wish them luck for that.
It was mentioned on other posts that with the size of Brazil, a single-engined fighter might be a risk too far when,say, flying over the amazon region.
My reponse to that would be to remind people that the Swedish Air Force flew 7 Gripens' from Sweden to Nevada (obviously with fuel-stops enroute) and back quite safely, when they attend the Red Flag exercise there.
But I second that current modern jet engines are more reliable and comparable to twin-jet config safety wise. Gripen is no lawn dart.
And I too have also been a big Saab fan. Ever since the Viggen they peaked my interest. And as a matter of fact, ALL of Sweden's defense products are class A+. The CV-90, the BV series, the CB-90H, RBS-56 and -70, Visby, those Kockums subs... The list goes on and on.
I fear however, that Gripen will be the last true Swedish combat aircraft produced, since the automatic government contracts and the number of aircraft required during the Cold War are a thing of the past; development costs just can't be recovered any more.
That's why it saddens me that Gripen has such a lousy export record. It's selling, just not in the right numbers it really deserves.
If this was indeed a US product it would have sold much more and that is perhaps what is sad (in fighter deals the product is not even that important since no matter what you buy you're likely to go from cold war single-role fighters to modern multirole... the bottom line capability is so good no matter what which is why some countries gradly accept 2nd hand F-16s).
Thanks for the photos.
I know, re: the upcoming (at some time anyway) MMRCA deal for the IAF that Saab would be up against it with the 5 other contenders, but I believe the Gripen NG would be the ideal fit. All the others (apart from the F-16) IMO are a bit of overkill- the IAF already has the 2-engined mix with Migs/Sukhois'.
The road-way operating design feature, along with the fuel-efficiency is a major bonus for NG in any competition. Much cheaper to train in too, than most.
Likewise (off-topic), I would personally support any Northrop F-20X redesign (incl F414 power) and perhaps including delta wing plus CFT, if feasible.
I've had a few questions I've wanted to bring to Ares attention, but didn't want to go to far offtopic..
Anyway, to start with, nice to see that Thai Gripen airborne. It's interesting btw, with all arguing for using twin engine aircraft over sea &/or jungle, that the Thai airforce supposedly choose the Gripen to a large extent due to wanting to better police it's sea interests. That's why it's being based in Surat Thani AFB as I understand it. & why load of RBS-15F's are included in the package right away. Perhaps they feel more comforted than others by Gripen's flameout statistic's (being 1 in what now?, close to 150 000 h?, & that time it restarted just fine..), or could it be that the waters & jungles of Thailand are so much nicer? & the amazon compared to plungeing into the sea, well if that sea is the Baltic Sea in the winter, which would be a not altogeather unlikely scenario for SwAF pilots?..
Regarding the AESA for Gripen, in general, & in connection to the IAF MMRCA deal, it would be interesting to hear some thoughts from Bill Sweetman for exemple, regarding Gripen International's India director Eddy de la Motte's claim that what SAAB are offering is a second generation AESA? Is that are reasonable claim?
Apparently USAF are deeming future development of Gripen related miniturized technology relevant enough to want in.
To what extent that might be relevant for the Selex Vixen radar, that now apparently goes by the name ES-05 Raven, & is being co-developed with Selex Galileo, Saab Microwave Systems and Saab Aerosystems as partners, I'm not sure. I guess it will have relevance for it future delopment at least.
According to NDTV journalist Vishnu Som who apparently attended a briefing recently, the new radar is presently on the demonstrator rig and meets expectations, & will be flight-tested in last quarter of this year. Apparently, it be showcased in NG (Gripen Demo) which will be flown to India in March. It seems they will then also demonstrate the range of it being over 4000 km.
So, it seems they are pretty confident in in that aircraft's performance & reliability..
He also reports that the Gripen Demo have done 10 supercruise flights at Mach 1.2 ... most (if not all) were with 4 air to air missiles. (Personally I think one should read it as fligts being done at more than Mach 1.2 , ie fulfulling the criteria for supercruise. I doubt they'd like to go public with what speed they were reaching at this stage.)
Vishnu also notes that: I think the main point that Gripen wants to stress is that India can be a part of the Gripen NG development project. There is huge potential in developing the platform. As an example ... the core avionics of the C/D are presently running on the NG rig at just 3 per cent of the capability of the system.
It would be interesting to know what price the IAF is getting from SAAB btw, considering it's now public knowledge that the JAS 39C/D (without LINK-16) delivered to Sweden under the Batch 3 production cost just under $30m/aircraft. Gives one an idea of how hard they might be able to press the price, huh..? For the cost of aquiering & maintaining/using 1 Mirage Rafale for exemple, they might be able to deploy 2 Gripen NG's, & still save money! I wonder if President Lula over in Brazil has realized that yet?..
Another note, related to the Baltic Air Policing, & indirectly the Luftwaffe's experience's the lately,: Between 2004 and until the CzAF took over the Baltic Air Policing for the first time, that is 5 years, NATO aircraft conducted 8 live A-scrambles. The 8th was conducted by the USAF in late 2008.
The CzAF Gripens did 8 x A-scambles in just 4 months and thus hold the record for being the most busy unit so far.
This strengthens what's being noted in the post about the Luftwaffe Typhoons attracting increased attention at their present mission; it would seem it's a new trend , that started alreday with the CzAF Gripens presense in that area.
The Czechs btw, seem to make considerable use of their 14 aircraft fleet: from May to August attending 2 QRA missions in 2 different places, after handing over the baltic mission to Luftwaffe they host a 2 week exercise with Texas Air National Guard at home, participate in Tiger Meet in Belgium, & fit in an airshow in GB.. Seems like a pretty busy schedule for 14 aircrafts, doesn't it?..
Ahh, & btw, FRED, on the overkill matter, one might argue that the Gripen NG is an overkill aswell then, right?.. I mean since SAAB claim the Gripen NG goes 1:6 to 1 against Su-35 in projected capacities for those planes in 2015.. in Gripens case, that's with Meteor & IRIS-T missiles natuarally btw.
Concerning price of the NG, there was something a while back on the Saab website that it would be in the $55-60M range.